Friday, September 22, 2006
Comments:
ok, now you must explain this. the pope? how come? I must admit I have not followed this story, although I was shocked to hear that he prayed outside of Auschwitz "O Lord, where were you while your people suffered?". Shocking! More apt might have been "O Lord, forgive the Catholic church for neglecting your people in their time of need". (but that's a tirade for another day, good to 'see' you:)
I believe it's for the fact that the Pope did not hide behind polite political rehtoric and actually said things as they are. He quoted Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos, "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." In return, many muslims rioted, destroyed churches, etc.
Victoria, I will happily respond on Monday. For now, I'll say that the Pope is very much the Vanguard of the Christendom in the West, and I support him in that role.
Regarding the Church during the Nazi rule...that explanation is storied. Suffice it to say that when the Pope speaks out, he takes the lives of many of the faithful into his hands. He must do this with caution and let those lives be offered by the individual.
Feel free to dog pile on me now all ya'll haters. :)
Regarding the Church during the Nazi rule...that explanation is storied. Suffice it to say that when the Pope speaks out, he takes the lives of many of the faithful into his hands. He must do this with caution and let those lives be offered by the individual.
Feel free to dog pile on me now all ya'll haters. :)
Wanted to congrulate you, personally, on the new baby. Number three...WOW.
It's a great thing to hear and I am glad to be around to know.
It's a great thing to hear and I am glad to be around to know.
congrats on the coming third child, nice!!
is he to be supported due to his statement, or in his immediate apology?
and while I'm not a hater, i might dog pile ya unless you further explain what you meant by this, "Suffice it to say that when the Pope speaks out, he takes the lives of many of the faithful into his hands. He must do this with caution and let those lives be offered by the individual."
is he to be supported due to his statement, or in his immediate apology?
and while I'm not a hater, i might dog pile ya unless you further explain what you meant by this, "Suffice it to say that when the Pope speaks out, he takes the lives of many of the faithful into his hands. He must do this with caution and let those lives be offered by the individual."
I'm not Catholic. I'm not Orthodox. I love Jesus a lot, like church a little. I beleive I have the honor of having the indwelling Holy Spirit. I pray to God continually. I thank Jesus for His sacrifice in my stead. Heres my thought...why do so many trust another fallible human to intercede for him or her? Why not simply pray and confess to God yourself? Christ died so that ALL could come to God. There is no hierarchy on earth, except where man established it. A Priest has the same voice in Heaven as you or I do. Someone explain this to me. I'm not being an ass.
Spoke, I’ve seen your comments on Papa H’s blog, so I understand you aren’t being an ass. You ask some of the obvious questions that many like myself also asked back in the day. Before I answer, let me preface this by saying that I am attempting to live out my life as an Orthodox Christian, but I don’t speak for the Church. Nor will this comment come near the length required to answer the question sufficiently. Lastly, how I HATE the blog format…I’d much rather sit down over coffee and tobak and have a dialogue with you. I’d much rather see you from time to time and pick up where we left off. I’d much rather have a context for your life and you have a context for mine. But alas, I made this statement on my lame blog, and so I have to answer for it here. How’s that for a preface?
Let me get the issue of the Pope out of the way first. I have tremendous respect and deep affection for the Pope. Perhaps what strengthens my affection for the Pope is the fact that the East and West really are seperated brethren. Further, he is at the helm of the largest ship of Christians in the world, and bears great responsibility for his people. This may sound silly to any Catholics reading this (Todd), but I regard him beyond his Papal throne, as a godly and holy man. Further, in all practicality, whether one is a Lutheran, an Anabaptist, an Emergent, an Episcopalian, an Evangelical Non-denom, or Eastern Orthodox, we all have to realize (as many before us have) that the Pope is in point and fact the true Vanguard of Christianity in the Western world. Everyone listens to Rome, and when Rome ripples the waters we ALL feel it and see its effect. Just look at the HUGE impacts all Christians felt and still feel from Vatican II. Yet, with all of this very real power, by and large Rome has wielded it to protect and serve the faith. This is my view. I won’t argue about or defend or attempt to convince you of Rome and the Pope’s importance. You’ll have to go to a Catholic blog if you want that.
This brings me to intercession. You asked, “Why do so many trust another fallible human to intercede for him or her?” First off, I would say that not a single one of us lives the faith alone. We all do it together, in community, just like Acts, just like Israel, we’re all together on this one, and the very idea of a Christian outside of a faith community is just a contradiction. While we may do it on our own…just Jesus and me…why would we want to? I am so thankful for the faith communities that I have spent time in, and I can’t imagine any reason why I would want to go solo. I often think of the birth of my children. We did homebirths for both of them. Sara’s body is perfectly healthy, perfectly capable of giving birth to a child, and ultimately we could do the birth alone, no midwives, no doulas, just Sara and me, heck she could have the baby sans husband if she wanted to (don’t get any ideas honey!). You see what I'm getting at? Finally, besides James' epistle telling us that, “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” (This is in the context of James telling us to confess our sins to each other). You know I ask EVERYONE to pray for me, including those who have gone on to the next life victorious in the faith. I’ve never asked the Pope to pray for me, but if I ever had his ear you know that I would ask him too. My spiritual father prays for me, my grandma prays for me, my son prays for me. We need community, and we need intercession (especially from the righteous ones among us and those reposed).
That's all for now. I'm planning on addressing hierarchy in a seperate post.
Let me get the issue of the Pope out of the way first. I have tremendous respect and deep affection for the Pope. Perhaps what strengthens my affection for the Pope is the fact that the East and West really are seperated brethren. Further, he is at the helm of the largest ship of Christians in the world, and bears great responsibility for his people. This may sound silly to any Catholics reading this (Todd), but I regard him beyond his Papal throne, as a godly and holy man. Further, in all practicality, whether one is a Lutheran, an Anabaptist, an Emergent, an Episcopalian, an Evangelical Non-denom, or Eastern Orthodox, we all have to realize (as many before us have) that the Pope is in point and fact the true Vanguard of Christianity in the Western world. Everyone listens to Rome, and when Rome ripples the waters we ALL feel it and see its effect. Just look at the HUGE impacts all Christians felt and still feel from Vatican II. Yet, with all of this very real power, by and large Rome has wielded it to protect and serve the faith. This is my view. I won’t argue about or defend or attempt to convince you of Rome and the Pope’s importance. You’ll have to go to a Catholic blog if you want that.
This brings me to intercession. You asked, “Why do so many trust another fallible human to intercede for him or her?” First off, I would say that not a single one of us lives the faith alone. We all do it together, in community, just like Acts, just like Israel, we’re all together on this one, and the very idea of a Christian outside of a faith community is just a contradiction. While we may do it on our own…just Jesus and me…why would we want to? I am so thankful for the faith communities that I have spent time in, and I can’t imagine any reason why I would want to go solo. I often think of the birth of my children. We did homebirths for both of them. Sara’s body is perfectly healthy, perfectly capable of giving birth to a child, and ultimately we could do the birth alone, no midwives, no doulas, just Sara and me, heck she could have the baby sans husband if she wanted to (don’t get any ideas honey!). You see what I'm getting at? Finally, besides James' epistle telling us that, “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” (This is in the context of James telling us to confess our sins to each other). You know I ask EVERYONE to pray for me, including those who have gone on to the next life victorious in the faith. I’ve never asked the Pope to pray for me, but if I ever had his ear you know that I would ask him too. My spiritual father prays for me, my grandma prays for me, my son prays for me. We need community, and we need intercession (especially from the righteous ones among us and those reposed).
That's all for now. I'm planning on addressing hierarchy in a seperate post.
Yes, I read your reply...a few times. I agree with you about our blog formats. The purpose of mine, is to get people to think and always question what is said and done. Not with an anarchist mentality per say, but simply "don't swallow everything you're told as true or truth". Plus, I like to rant.
I can't say I'm in this group of Christians though...we all have to realize (as many before us have) that the Pope is in point and fact the true Vanguard of Christianity in the Western world. No one in my congregation would agree with you. This sounds more like your own definition of the type of respect you give him, or at least the Office of Pope. Non Catholics care little about what he says. Case in point: I am the only one I know that is actually following the "Limbo" discussions/prayers/meetings. I've mentioned it to friends from half a dozen churches. No one even knows what Limbo is, let alone knowledge of a Doctrinal change as big as this.
Another point in my thinking. How can a human change these ideals? God listens to the Church Hierarchy and figures they have a better plan? Or was their first plan incorrect? Again, I'm not being an ass, but what's next for the Catholic church? No Purgatory by a human's decision?
No, the Pope is just a man. I respect him as much as I respect my Prime Minister...another human I will probably never meet.
As far as Christian community. I agree and shout this from the rooftops. We need community. However, the people I consider "community" are the ones that will come to my home any time, and help out, hang out or ask for help. These are the ones that I visit in hospital, mind their children, trust with my daughter and pray for. They are friends and family that mill about in my 10 foot radious daily, weekly, monthly. Not one of us knows about strangers praying for us ( although God hears their prayers too) and we can't really pray for them cause we don't know them. If I'm ever asked to pray for someone I don't know, the only reason the petition was put forth is because I know someone who is in community with that person. It isn't because God listens more closely to the utterances of the Holy Righteous Spoke. Do you follow me?
As in the case of the Tsunami, everyone was praying...for no one they knew. The point is that we are all God's children and He is in control whether everyone knows it or not. When Global crisis hit, I pray. When I hear of shootings, abductions and other news items from around the world, I pray. This blue spere is God's community and I can relate to any human in many conditions and situations. So in this sense, I intercede, as every Christian should.
You know I ask EVERYONE to pray for me, including those who have gone on to the next life victorious in the faith.
This one is best dealt with in about 56 years or so....then I'll know for certain.
As far as if I ever met the Pope? I don't know, I think I would like to know more about him, not what he does or has to do.
Favorite food. Favorite books. Favorite music...that sort of thing.
Be strong in the faith brother. At the end of the day, those of us that hold His hand will know everything. All the different denominations and such that are truely His will be standing along side one another giving Him praise.
Bless you
Spoke
I can't say I'm in this group of Christians though...we all have to realize (as many before us have) that the Pope is in point and fact the true Vanguard of Christianity in the Western world. No one in my congregation would agree with you. This sounds more like your own definition of the type of respect you give him, or at least the Office of Pope. Non Catholics care little about what he says. Case in point: I am the only one I know that is actually following the "Limbo" discussions/prayers/meetings. I've mentioned it to friends from half a dozen churches. No one even knows what Limbo is, let alone knowledge of a Doctrinal change as big as this.
Another point in my thinking. How can a human change these ideals? God listens to the Church Hierarchy and figures they have a better plan? Or was their first plan incorrect? Again, I'm not being an ass, but what's next for the Catholic church? No Purgatory by a human's decision?
No, the Pope is just a man. I respect him as much as I respect my Prime Minister...another human I will probably never meet.
As far as Christian community. I agree and shout this from the rooftops. We need community. However, the people I consider "community" are the ones that will come to my home any time, and help out, hang out or ask for help. These are the ones that I visit in hospital, mind their children, trust with my daughter and pray for. They are friends and family that mill about in my 10 foot radious daily, weekly, monthly. Not one of us knows about strangers praying for us ( although God hears their prayers too) and we can't really pray for them cause we don't know them. If I'm ever asked to pray for someone I don't know, the only reason the petition was put forth is because I know someone who is in community with that person. It isn't because God listens more closely to the utterances of the Holy Righteous Spoke. Do you follow me?
As in the case of the Tsunami, everyone was praying...for no one they knew. The point is that we are all God's children and He is in control whether everyone knows it or not. When Global crisis hit, I pray. When I hear of shootings, abductions and other news items from around the world, I pray. This blue spere is God's community and I can relate to any human in many conditions and situations. So in this sense, I intercede, as every Christian should.
You know I ask EVERYONE to pray for me, including those who have gone on to the next life victorious in the faith.
This one is best dealt with in about 56 years or so....then I'll know for certain.
As far as if I ever met the Pope? I don't know, I think I would like to know more about him, not what he does or has to do.
Favorite food. Favorite books. Favorite music...that sort of thing.
Be strong in the faith brother. At the end of the day, those of us that hold His hand will know everything. All the different denominations and such that are truely His will be standing along side one another giving Him praise.
Bless you
Spoke
# posted by 
: 3:49 PM
: 3:49 PM
As a Chrismated member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, in no way a "Papist", I think the statement "Non Catholics care little about what he says" is
a) not entirely true
and
b) tragic
period
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a) not entirely true
and
b) tragic
period
